#10: Solving Burnout & Stress Through Accessible Coaching Offered as a Corporate Benefit w/ Lucy Born, Founder & CEO of Inward and Organizational Psychologist

Julian Alvarez: All right, welcome back everyone to another episode of the Inventing the Future podcast, where our mission is to inspire and empower young entrepreneurs to solve the world’s biggest problems. I have an awesome guest with me today, Lucy Born. I actually met Lucy through Daniel Dubois from episode number five and Daniel Dubois is a super-connector because Lucy is actually the fifth guest that I have. Thanks, Daniel. Much gratitude to Daniel and I’m really happy to have you here. How are you doing today?

Lucy Born: I’m doing great. It’s been a great day so far. Just got some big news. I’m excited to be implementing that and launching that next month. I’m working with our heads down and excited to take a moment and jump on this podcast with you.

Julian: Happy to have you here. And as a little teaser for the guest Lucy, sound like some big guess. I don’t know if you can say to them, but they…

Lucy: We just signed Peloton today which is a pretty big brand down to have only after six months of starting this. I’m pretty excited about what (01:11 inaudible) going forward.

Julian: Oh, cool. We started with big names. We don’t know what it is yet, but we’re going to figure it out and that’s a little teaser for you guys. Lucy, so to start off here, I think it’d be great if we could start by having you tell us a bit about who you are, your story, and what got you interested in entrepreneurship. I know you are still an organizational psychologist. I’m curious why did you decide to take the leap and become an entrepreneur?

Lucy: I started off by going to business school originally. I did my first degree in commerce and specialized in organizational behavior. I really love that work but like most people who do really fall into the self-development train and really got into that. I just fell in love with everything I was learning. I decided to get my master’s in counseling psychology and became a registered psychotherapist. At the same time, I was travelling probably for the last eight or nine years to business and tech events around the world. So, I started doing a lot of work with executives, with founders, and then the pandemic hit and the practice I was working with closed down. Actually, I was talking with other founders, and they would go like, (02:24 unintelligible), “well you and I have the same job. I’m spending so much of my time trying to get my employees back on track, trying to keep them engaged, trying to make sure they’re well cared for”. I just fell in love with the idea of putting coaches or well-trained psychologists into an organization and how that could shift company culture. I took the leap and decided to do it. It felt like the world needed that more than ever now with COVID-19 going on and really putting attention to employee well-being. I took the leap and started to pursue the entrepreneurial journey.

Julian: That is an exciting leap but a cool one. Tell us more about your company Inward. What do you guys do? What’s your mission, and how would you describe the 30 seconds to one-minute pitch?

Lucy: So Inward provides virtual one-on-one coaching. We hire the top 3% of coaches with organizational experience. We’re focused on access, affordability, usage, and we work with companies to tackle employee leadership, performance, and well-being. This is our mission.

Julian: Amazing. The way this would work is if I’m a company, say, I could be any company like Peloton, you just signed Peloton, and you’re like, “Hey, I want to care for my employees. I want to make sure that they’re successful”. So, you offer them benefits? Many companies offer a variety of benefits and so, your Inward is a benefit that’s offered to these companies, and it’s a coaching service that everyone gets access to. The great thing about it is that everyone at the company is able to access these services, not just the people at the top or anything like that, but it’s everyone and that creates a community effect and a ripple effect across the entire company. So is that how you would outline it?

Lucy: Yeah, that’s definitely how it works. And I think a lot of benefit programs sit in the background, and it’s more focused on where there’s a problem. Traditional people may not use the psychological benefits that are in their background that are offered by the company, but now we’re more of the mindset. It is like going to the gym for your mindset. It’s not just solving a problem, but how can you be in your best health? How can you reach your potential, and how can we support you not just at work in terms of your development, but also in your personal life? How to connect them together and making it accessible to not just the executives, but everyone throughout the whole company so that it has that ripple effect. That’s very much an organizational psychology approach we’re using. A bottom-up approach of how does that have a ripple effect through with individual work and then impacting teams and then the company overall by doing that individual work.

Julian: Amazing. I love that. A gym for your mindset. That’s such a great way to put it. We all need to consistently go to the gym and upgrade our mindset because no matter how powerful mentally we may be, there are always more ways in which we can continue to expand our mind and our potential because it’s infinite.

Lucy: Especially with entrepreneurs, how can we create that resilient mind? It’s ups and downs all the time. Really that’s going to be our biggest muscle at our benefit to strengthen our minds. So, we are putting focus there.

Julian: That’s true. I think when it comes to mindset, it’s important for everyone but entrepreneurs especially to go through some tough shit to put it lightly. I would love to learn more if you could tell us more about the problem that you’re aiming to solve and how you would think about it. Not just maybe for the companies, but also for the actual employees themselves. So how do you think about the problem that you’re solving here?

Lucy: So many employees are faced with this. It’s like 80% of employees experience work-related stress, 80% of burnout. I think it was the World Health Organization that recently launched something, and it said that anxiety and depression cost – I think globally it was one trillion dollars each year for the global economy. When you look at that, that’s quite an impact. How can we really look at that not just from employees? I think it was also (06:25 unintelligible) that one in six people cried to a colleague this year. With covid, this issue is becoming more and more prevalent. And it’s amazing because now companies have to pay attention. It’s sort of the background like, “yes, we know burnout in our employees is stressful, but now it’s something that’s really being called out”. What’s exciting, not just with the issue, is there are solutions and there are actually statistics on how mental health programs can create a return on your investment. So, these companies now also have statistics that are like, “Hey, if you invest one dollar in employee mental health programs, you’re near four dollars in return in terms of productivity”.They now actually have the incentive to do that. So that also makes a big impact. And then they’ve done studies, and you can see that investing in mental health programs is going to reduce burnout by 52%. So now there are actually statistics in a place where if the employees are coming to their employer going, “Hey, we want this”, there’s actually information and data now to back it up, which is exciting.

Julian: Interesting. So the problem of anxiety and burnout and all of these problems have always existed. Maybe they’ve increased over time slightly, but the major shift here sounds like it’s been more. So, the data that supports that says, “Hey, this is actually a problem and if you solve it, this is the benefits you could receive”. And I feel like that’s definitely probably the biggest point because I would think if I’m a company, one of my hesitations in buying this coaching service is, how do I know that it works? How do I measure the (07:58 unintelligible) on something like this? And how do you think about something like that, especially in how you sell it to companies? You just reference these statistics and data, or how do you go about it?

Lucy: Yes, there are two parts. One, it’s great to see that companies are becoming more aware of the impacts of absenteeism on productivity. But what we do is actually create our own report. So, everything is confidential in our platform between the employee and our coaches, but we do give anonymous aggregated surveys and then that kind of measures the overall patterns we’re seeing within the company, such as psychological health, employee well-being, how they think their work is impacting overall company goals and communication expectations. It can give the company a snapshot of what people are working on, what the issues are with the company, and then we can jump on a call with the company to actually talk through some of these overarching patterns and come up with solutions.

Julian: To go a little deeper into the problem, what would you say usually happens if a problem like anxiety, like burnout isn’t dealt with? What are the second, third, fourth-order consequences of that?

Lucy: Yeah, number one is probably lacking employee engagement and motivation and slowly just burnout. We’ve worked with companies and we have seen employees are really burnt out and by providing these types of solutions, they actually can start working on it. But if not, lots of them just burn out and end up quitting and leaving. This is so much money for the company to invest and do the hiring process and all that versus just developing and supporting the employee. Lots of them will quit, they will leave, but then they go to another company, and it’s the same type of setup. So, it’s really providing the employees with the support systems with the boundaries, with communication, with essential wellbeing, tactics to help support them wherever they go and on their journey.

Julian: So that’s being able to support them. And the interesting thing to note here is that, at the core, the problem is that employees are stressed, they feel anxious, they feel burnout, but then it’s like what’s happening as a consequence of that. And if you dig deeper, you’ll find that many of them are leaving, which is horrible for them because they have to go and find another job where they just feel stressed, and they’re not in a good place emotionally. And it’s also a problem for the companies because they’re having to spend more money on recruiting and training people constantly. That’s a huge cost that they probably don’t really estimate very well.

Lucy: Yeah, and I think also it has such an impact on the team as well. That’s whoever those employees working with. (10:21 inaudible) to kind of pick up the slack or what’s communication within the whole team, but it has such a ripple effect when someone’s really struggling within the team and the ripple effect throughout the organization.

Julian: That’s really a good point because I know from my experience in my startup, whoever does the least or is the least motivated, that basically sets the bar for what is acceptable. And so, someone feels like they’re not motivated, they’re not really productive, or they don’t feel well, which literally has an effect on the entire team whether it’s conscious or not. Most of these things are probably subconscious, at least in the beginning.

Lucy: Yeah, and a lot of things, including employee communication. How are the team members communicating? What are the norms that are within that team culture? And when someone’s actually working on themselves and working on their communication, their emotional awareness, emotion regulation, they start interacting with their team members, they can set boundaries, then their team members start working on themselves and it can start shifting the whole team that maybe was problematic in certain areas.

Julian: I’m curious, how did you discover this problem? How do you even realize this was a problem and then actually go and decide to do something about it

Lucy: Just from doing coaching and working with founders and entrepreneurs and CEOs, they could come out with so many great revelations and going to their team. This happens also when founders go to three-day weekend workshops, and they come back with these ideas of how they want to implement and the (11:43 inaudible) goes another thing. Like, “oh, man, I got to start doing this now”. (11:49 unintelligible). But if they’re doing the work themselves, it’s coming from an intrinsic place. And so, I started seeing when you start doing that work and working through these living beliefs and working on that person, and it’s coming from them, they’re doing that work, no one needs to be told to do anything. It’s really coming from them and so just having done that work personally with clients, I knew the impact if you put someone who was really trained and doing that one-on-one work within the company. The impact would have a ripple effect as I keep saying.

Julian: Something I’d like to ask you is there are so many people that coaching these executives. You’re not the only one that coaches and there are thousands of people that do that. So why is it that there were thousands of people doing this type of coaching and probably saw the same problems, but you decided to do something about it and take it to the next level and actually start a company? What’s the difference there? Why did you decide to actually step up and build a more scalable solution?

Lucy: Yeah, it’s funny because that’s where all the limiting beliefs were held. I was like “why me?” What makes me different from other companies currently doing that? And I really believe in the power of self-development. I personally can change the world when we start working on ourselves and I wanted to think like, how can we make this more accessible? And really just fell in love with the passion of access, and once I started focusing on that, it was like, there are other people doing it. Great the more people working on it, the better. And if I can have an impact even if it’s just with one team and one company, that’s good enough. Yes, I’d like to create a scalable solution, but I believe in this mission and the impact it has to transform not just the people I’m working with and the clients, but everyone they interact with and their family members in the company. So that to me was a big enough reason to at least test it and try growing it.

Julian: Wow. I really like that. So, it seems like one of the key things you did to overcome all the limiting beliefs was just set like a small impact. Right now I’m hoping for individual people but what if I could help like a team or just a bigger group of people? It doesn’t have to be massive, but how would I be able to do that? And by doing that, it’s not like a crazy impossible vision that seems attainable. And then because it seems attainable, you actually take action and from there, if that works, it increases your scope of what you think is possible. Is that how you framed it?

Lucy: Yeah, the big thing I think you touched on there was action. A lot of the time when I first started it was “Am I the right person? What if this doesn’t work? What’s the point of it like this? Why not just do nine to five? This is a lot more energy.” I had all these thoughts that would come up, and just by focusing on, I can reevaluate all those thoughts in a month from now but right now I’m just going to focus on action, and then when I’m in a more grounded place, I’ll reevaluate. Do I still want this? What’s going on for me? But really just focusing on what can I do right now. How can I move the needle forward? And so, action versus basing all my decisions from a place of feeling. This is not what most psychotherapists would usually say, but really having an action mindset can be pretty powerful.

Julian: I think you have to set things up in your mind in order to empower yourself to actually take action. And some people can think it is super big and feel intimidated by that and still take action. Other people probably need to frame it more so like something attainable, something I can do now and take action. I don’t think either approach is best for everyone, it’s just like thinking what propels you towards action and set yourself up in that way mentally to actually take the action you need to accomplish what you want to accomplish.

Lucy: Yeah, and I think a key part there, too, is what motivates you. So that helped me when I was starting with what was my personal why versus my company why. And they were different. And when I got into those moments where I was feeling stuck and doubting myself and like, why am I doing this? I’m creating all this extra work for myself, all the stuff like am I the right person, I would tap into my personal why and my company why sounds great mission of providing more access to self-development, improving well-being among employees. All this great stuff that I really believe in for the mission of our company but my personal why is different. And so really tapping into what your personal why is why are you doing this? Being an entrepreneur what’s driving you? Is it a lifestyle? Is it creating your own being able to build? Is it you want to test yourself and challenge yourself really connecting to that? So, every time those self-limiting thoughts come up, you go, “oh, catch it, there it is. There’s a limiting thought”. Here’s my why and you just kind of get used. Those thoughts don’t pop up so much and when they would for me, I would go, “oh, that hasn’t popped up for a while. That’s interesting. That’s popping up”. (16:25 unintelligible) It wouldn’t really impact me, and I’d live right through it. But just having that really building that strong personal “why” is why you’re pursuing this. I think it’s really valuable.

Julian: Yeah, that’s a great point, because it’s important to realize that when we take action for anything or our motivation is basically broken down in two ways. We have our intrinsic motivators and our extrinsic motivators. Extrinsic being money or status or whatever it is, and intrinsic being your passion, what you actually enjoy doing, or your purpose. Your “why”. And I think your ‘why’ is the most powerful intrinsic motivator that you can tap into. So, if you have clarity on that, then you could always leverage that as a potential to overcome whatever comes at you. And I know from experience as well that any time I felt like giving up at my startup, just bringing up the intrinsic why of why I started and why is it important, why this connects with my why mission, it makes it so much harder to give up because you know that you would also be giving up on that mission and your “why” and that’s something that you just cannot afford to do.

Lucy: Well, I love that. And if you ask the question of; does this not resonate for me? Have I changed? At least then you’re having a dialogue. You’re not coming from a place of avoidance or failing or anything like that where you are running away, but more it’s like, “Okay, I’ve changed. Maybe this isn’t right for me anymore”, but we’re really thinking about it or as your personal why changed. And that’s okay too, but at least you’re being conscious about that.

Julian: You got to be very mindful of it. So, talking about impact, I’m curious how Inward has basically started to shift company culture. I know that’s one of the pieces of the impact that this coaching benefit has. So what impact is it having and how is it shifting company culture at large?

Lucy: Yeah, it’s really amazing that we do these every quarter. We do these reports and we see shifts where companies are well-being, their employee well-being has gone up, burnout has gone down. Communications that we had with a company recently in communications and expectations, it went up like 21%. And it was kind of like, how is that impacting the team and the leadership team when they’re all working together and now everyone’s been working on their communication. Expectations are being clearly communicated and it’s a big thing we focus on, as well as how to do proper recognition within a company. So now you have all these employees recognizing each other’s work and the motivations going up and keep pushing (18:47 Unintelligible) and the shift in performance and engagement and just a cohesive we are working towards something big together. And that’s a big part of things we teach around communication. We do have hard things that come up, that we’re communicating in a way that we’re working towards the same goal and getting people on the same page in the ship that can have. I think every team is going to have a different shift depending on what they’re working on, but there are so many different areas where there can be an improvement.

Julian: Yeah, that’s what I think is so cool about your solution. It’s that everyone and every team have very different goals and so, this isn’t like a solution that the coaching isn’t the same basically for every person in every team. I saw on the website that when you sign up for the services or the coaching, you set what your goals are. Like do I want to improve my productivity or is burnout a problem or is it my anxiety and stress, or do I want a career change? Use that whatever else you want and that helps to customize the coaching to best serve each person and team. And obviously, if something is more personalized, it’s going to drive the results far greater in the long run.

Lucy: I think also provided our coaches have different specialties so whatever is resonating for you. If you want to coach a really centered on mindfulness, one who specializes in neuroscience, because that’s the way you want to learn more about how to do coaching for neuroscience if you want to focus on more leadership skill development. So, there are also coaches that are really specific about your goals. So just making it really tailored, curated for the company and what the company is looking to work on and also what the employee is looking to work on.

Julian: So, two things here with Inward, one is I’m curious what the business model is because part of what makes the solution really powerful as well is how accessible and affordable it is. And so, I’m curious, what is the business model? How do you make it affordable and how do you make sure that you offer these services at an affordable rate while still building a viable business?

Lucy: Yeah, it’s pretty cool. It was a little product. We have companies that have five to ten people startups using this and then companies all the way up to the peloton which is just a product that’s really focused on access and affordability and usage. So, a lot of models are built around subscription models where you sign up and it’s “set it and forget it” and you paid per employee per head type of thing, but it’s not really based on the usage of the product. So, ours is all about usage. If you’re not using your subscribed hours, you’re going to make sure other employees get access, so the companies know that we’re really about usage. And what happens is it’s actually better for the product when employees are using it. We want something that’s engaged. So now they’re using their hours. If they’re not, it’s going to go to someone else on their team but it kind of spreads organically throughout the company, which has been really interesting to see people start with weekly sessions and they’re feeling good. They go by weekly or monthly and they’re like, now I want someone else on my team to have access. And what’s really awesome with executive coaching, I love coaching, I love executive coaching, we would provide it to one person at the top and now we have all of our people. We have executive coaches that work for us that now we can provide coaching to ten people for the same price as that one sees the sweet person. And so now it just spreads throughout the whole company, which has been pretty cool. And with it being all online, our expenses aren’t as much as if we were trying to operate the same person. So, I think it’s for every business model’s kind of figuring out what you want to provide, what your mission is. We’re really focused on access and affordability, and so our model reflects that. And then you have to figure out your margins and all that but I think it’s just figuring out what your goal is, how you can build a model. That is really for us. We are centered on impact and use and access so our model is all about usage, affordability and being able to offer it to more people.

Julian: It’s a really good takeaway. So, thinking of your business model and how to come up with it, it’s a good approach to think about what your goals are. So, in this case, affordability, accessibility, and impact and then try to figure out what potential pricing models or business models make sense in the context of those goals and try things out and see what works and what doesn’t.

Lucy: Yeah, I actually based it off a company that is food delivery and I really like their subscription model. So, it’s not in the coaching space, but I really like that and there were month rollovers and things like that. And so, I think taking inspiration from different models, even in completely different industries, and seeing what works, what makes people engage in trying to learn from that. When I first started, the first weekend when I came up with this idea, we did a big business model canvas and we covered the whole wall and posts and just tried to really think about how different ways of building the pricing model and what the business would look like and I think something like that is really helpful for just creating all these different ideas and approaches and getting it down on paper.

Julian: That’s great. And I think the key here is that you don’t have to reinvent the wheel because success leaves clues. And if you see models that work in other contexts, maybe your business is completely different but the idea of the model may apply just as well. So, the thing is, you can borrow things that work, and at the end of the day, it’s a matter of experimenting to see what actually does work.

Lucy: Thousands of people do coaching. When I first started, people were like, “oh, this is kind of a crowded space, hearing people’s feedback”. And I think everyone is going to have feedback, there is going to be competition but it’s just looking at driving back to what’s your company’s why? What can you provide that has value and really looking at who your customer is and who you can provide value to? And that’s why I love the business model canvas. Really looking at who your customers were, what value providing to each of them, really being able to just in a day flush out all this information and then have something at least to go for it. I had a website up within the week and just knew to let go of the idea that everything had to be perfect. I knew that it was all going to get thrown out at some point and that was okay. Let’s just start somewhere so you at least have somewhere to build on. So much we’re trying to wait until we have the perfect thing and it’s just letting that go, I think can be really helpful.

Julian: Yeah, it’s never easy. What I think is genius about your solution is that you took something that already exists, which is coaching. Coaching has become more popular over time but the unique thing that you did is that you created a system around that coaching and specifically oriented to solve the needs and problems of companies and of professionals like employees. And because you created a system, you can filter out coaches that meet specific criteria and you can learn about the needs and problems of companies specifically and find out how the coaching services can best solve those problems. So, it’s really like taking something that already exists and creating a system around it. It’s interesting, and I’ve noticed that other founders I’ve interviewed, like they do the same as Switch Goswami, for example, the CEO of Truven, he took data that you already have access to from Instagram and Facebook, and he created a system to organize it in such a way that it becomes meaningful, usable and accessible. So, a lot of these pieces, individual components are already out there. It is just a matter of finding how can you take these pieces and create a system around them to create a solution that solves the problem way more effectively?

Lucy: Yeah, completely. I think it’s getting into the mindset of where people are going to get value and where can I provide value. Just having that mindset of being of service. Where can you provide extra value? Where can you be more effective? It doesn’t have to be completely reinventing the wheel. It doesn’t need to be some brand-new idea but you can take something and kind of reiterate on it and find something where your personal capabilities and interests align to provide more value to that and consumer.

Julian: Absolutely. Yeah, it’s all about identifying the underserved needs and the problems that have not been solved and figuring out how you can play with all the pieces around it to build something unique and awesome and impactful. Yeah. So last question here on Inward. I’m curious if Inward was to achieve its ultimate destiny, if it got to the point where it fulfilled its vision, what do you think the world would look like?

Lucy: Yeah, I think there would be self-actualization, there’d be belonging, there’d be empathy, true connectivity. I think when people are really working on themselves and that’s what Inwards really about self-development, then I think you’re treating people who are more authentic, being able to be empathetic, connected to one another, and really live much more harmonious.

Julian: That’s beautiful, self-actualization is at the core of every human’s vision and potential. Next, we’ll move into the psychology and mindset side of things, and one question I want to start off with here is that since you’re a coach yourself, as an organizational psychologist, I’m curious, what are some of the most common fears or limiting beliefs that people experience the most and how do you usually help them overcome them?

Lucy: I’m a psychotherapist, I work as a counselor, I’ve had clients for years, and you come up against whether it’s in working with high growth organizations or just kind of anyone run in the mill. There are overarching patterns that come up that you tend to see more often and those can be anything from what if I fail? That’s a big one. A lot of worthiness. Like, am I good enough? What makes me able to do this? I think a lot of people, don’t value themselves enough to put in the work for themselves. And that comes up a lot. Really valuing yourself, loving yourself, which a lot of people struggle with, which sounds kind of airy fairy-like love yourself, but like really being able to own who you are and really believe you are worthy to then put in the work for yourself. Because otherwise, it’s coming from a place of almost like stick versus carrot approach of like your kind of like being hard on yourself and using that type of motivation where you’re really kind of beating yourself down to try and create growth where you’re like, “oh, man, I’m not good at it”. And then it’s like, “ Okay I’m going to use that to try and complete these tasks or whatever work on this project”. And that’s just not sustainable and actually creates a lot of extra work for yourself to come to a place where you really value yourself and that comes into taking care of yourself. Which I think all entrepreneurs really struggle with. They are like, self-care, which sounds lovely for those people who can afford to have time for it, but really starting to view it as more of an essential for yourself to show up as your best self. And I think for founders, am I good enough? Is it just me? Can I do this? And what if I do succeed and then I have to execute? That’s a whole other scary thing that can come up in terms of belief systems. There’s definitely a tone.

Julian: So, if I have, this sort of limiting belief where I don’t value myself or I don’t think I’m capable of, I don’t think I have enough time, what would you usually suggest to start off there? Like, is it kind of communicating a different mindset and helping them enable a mindset shift, or is it more so like go do something that would help you gain confidence? I don’t know, like what usually is an actionable approach you would give to people to help overcome those challenges?

Lucy: Yeah, I think a big part first step is awareness and then being able to catch and go like, “Hey, do I actually want this? How is this limiting belief impacting my actions right now?” And actually, do I want this to be the driving force right now? Do I want to shift it? I’ve done a lot of self-limiting belief work for myself and I honestly believe I wouldn’t have been able to start Inward without having done so much self-development work for myself. It really helped propel that. Probably would have taken me a lot more time to actually fully step in and show up wholeheartedly to be able to pursue this. And I think working on not just your limiting beliefs, but then also building a strong mindset of going out, finding ways to strengthen your mind, looking for things that cause you discomfort. This is big for Navy SEAL David Gorgons on (30:33 Inaudible) talks a lot about this, like how do you build a resilient mind? And a lot of that is looking for things that cause you to discomfort and doing it anyway and then celebrating that. Celebrating not how you felt about it or how it went, but the action itself and beginning to store up that to build your confidence and your self-esteem. Then you can put yourself in opportunities that you would never put yourself in before. Seeking discomfort is just a really great approach.

Julian: That’s a great suggestion. I love David Gorgons. And David Gorgons says that “if it doesn’t suck, I don’t want to do it”, which is crazy and he also says, “Embrace the suck, honor the struggle”. And he has this idea of like when you go to the gym or you play tennis or something, but you form callouses in your hand, well, he says “you have to do hard shit in order to form callouses in your mind”. And what happens if you look at your skin and you form callouses, your skin becomes harder, it becomes more resistant to whatever happens and you’re able to lift weights without it hurting. And the same happens for the mind. If you do hard shit, you’ll form callouses in your mind that will enable you to have a higher pain threshold. And if you intentionally put yourself in difficult situations and situations that suck, then when you face real situations that do actually suck, you’ll be much better prepared for it. Yeah, and I think that concept is also called antifragile, like moving into the things that are uncomfortable.

Lucy: Yeah. There’s also a great book called “The Dare Method”. It’s centered on anxiety, but I think it breaks it down to four steps and it’s very actionable. And yeah, how do we find discomfort? You start getting into the mindset of like, “oh, that thing makes me uncomfortable”, whether it’s working out, whether it’s a hard conversation with a colleague, whether it starts trying to do some new tasks for your new project. You’re working on going, “oh great, there’s an opportunity for me to practice this mindset”. And the more and more you practice your cause to get into the mindset of like, great, there’s an opportunity for me. Oh, great I’m walking past the pull-up bar and I’m going to go do some pull-ups because you actually start craving that discomfort because you know what’s making you stronger.

Julian: It’s really funny you mention that because I have a pull-up bar right outside my room and every time I go to the kitchen, I look at it, I’m like, just do it. Just fucking do it. Don’t think about it. Don’t negotiate with the mind. And over time I’ve gotten better. Like now, I don’t even try to hesitate or try to notice the limiting beliefs as I walk in the hall because I always see them every time I pass by there. So that’s been an incredible way.

Lucy: I resonate with that because I started working on my pull-ups this year. I’ve never tried before. In this year, starting in January, I did. And I have a pull-up bar outside my house, and so I walk by it every day. And at first, it kind of is grueling and now I look at it I’m like “can I go for another attempt here?” And I think it’s the more you face something, the more you build up the tolerance for it and now it’s no longer uncomfortable, and you push yourself more. And yeah, it’s just pretty powerful with that mindset can do.

Julian: That’s funny. We’re on the same frequency. This is your first-time founder and you started Inward, I think, about a year ago. So, I’m curious for yourself what fears or limiting beliefs or doubts or insecurities pass through your mind when you first decided to make that entrepreneurial leap?

Lucy: Yeah, you know, when I first started, I think the idea started almost about a year ago and then I started to actually take actionable steps. It probably took me a few months to actually create some actual steps, actually. So, we’re going on eight-month seven now being an actual company. The idea and the living beliefs and how long I spent in that mindset of like, do I want to do this? What am I taking on? It felt like a huge commitment when realistically the best thing that helped me was just doing. And then the more I did it, the more it started to feel real. I remember the first time I actually told them like I have a company called Inward. I was like, did I just say that? But the more I worked on it, the more I began to feel real. And I think I was waiting to get so stuck and just waiting for it to feel right and for you to feel like you want to do this or for you to truly know that this is the right idea and the right project. And we’re constantly waiting for some type of information to come back to us. And I think it’s letting that notion go and just going you have to start testing and trying to actually then have information to act on. So, I think being okay with the unknown, jumping into that and really focusing on doing the work and then from there kind of making choices versus trying to figure out all your thoughts and feelings and if things are right and if this is their idea just start testing and then go from there.

Julian: I mean, I think the best way to discover what you don’t know is by taking action. And it’s also how you can best plan out what you want to do. Some people procrastinate by planning and you can fall into that dangerous trap at times. Somebody realizes that and actually ended up taking action.

Lucy: I also had some supporters, some people who were really kind of helping instill that mindset. So, I’d also say if you can get a mentor, join an entrepreneurial-minded group, find what’s available. Not too long into my journey, I joined on deck. It’s a founder fellowship and just hearing all these other entrepreneurs working on projects all at different stages, I found that really motivating because it is filled with ups and downs. And how do you get through that? And people have great different signs of success. Signing peloton was a really great one, but actually, one of the biggest ones that happened not too long ago was just the idea that a really bad day happened. I was dealing with a whole team of lawyers. It was really stressful. What happens if I lose this contract? Like all these, like limiting costs, like, oh, my gosh, I just decided if it will go, I’m okay with that. Like, this is a learning opportunity. There’s going to be another company along the way. It’s just kind of taking off some of that pressure that we put on ourselves and really identify when that comes and kind of having more of this very much mindfulness approach, but more of a mindset of observation. Of like, oh, that’s interesting. Okay, I’m okay with that. I’m going to let this go. And that was to me like the biggest win when all the stakes are up and just being able to go like I’m okay if we lose this. I’m putting in the work and there will be other opportunities that arise. And be able to kind of catch yourself when shit hits the fan and things get difficult having those things in place and working on that.

Julian: Yeah, that’s a great mindset because I think it is good to look into the future and kind of see what might go wrong to mitigate that risk but there comes a point where there’s not much more you can do other than what you need to do. And at that point, you do have control, but that’s where most of your focus should be anyway. On what you can do now to actually control a good outcome or to avoid any risk that might come. But yeah. It’s kind of identifying the balance of there’s all this fear and anxiety versus I’m careless and I’m not thinking about it at all. And usually, the ideal is a balance between those two extremes and finding being anxious enough to do something about it and take action and make sure it’s good, but also not being careless and not caring to the point where you don’t anticipate and do well.

Lucy: And I think figuring out what your strengths and weaknesses are and where you can grow in certain areas. Are you bad with execution, but you’re good with other things? Like where you struggling and where do you want to seek help for support? I mean, for me, starting this out, I was not a typical founder entrepreneur like all the entrepreneurs I knew was like, I have a thousand ideas a day. I’m (38:07 unintelligible) and I just didn’t fit that persona, and you realize that’s okay and I play to my own strengths of being really organized. But I felt like I didn’t necessarily fit the entrepreneur box, which is okay and just kind of realizing that’s okay and that’s what you make of it and how you want to show up.

Julian: Yeah, the truth is no one’s an entrepreneur until they’re an entrepreneur. And Lucy you actually have the honor of being my first female founder and I really would like more females to actually take the leap. So, I’m curious, as a female founder, what have been some of the main challenges for you, and what advice would you give to other young female entrepreneurs that might experience the same challenges?

Lucy: I think this is one of the best times ever to be a female founder. There is so much support for female founders right now. There are specific startup competitions just for female founders. There’s a lot of support in the community right now for this. And I found that being a female founder, lots of male founders are very supportive and giving me their time and females founders and it’s like there’s a lot of support. There are challenges with anything but I think the biggest thing is just finding people who are willing to support you, diving into can you get a mentor? Can you get a female mentor and get a male that can get any mentor to kind of help support you? I think it applies to anyone. Join a community, really find support systems in place and make sure you have strong support systems outside of that as well. It’s a great time. Honestly like to go after it. I think there’s a lot of support in place right now for female founders. So please reach out if you have any questions. I’m happy to have a conversation.

Julian: Amazing. Thank you for offering that help. But yeah, it’s important to realize that even though there may be still present challenges in today’s age, the thing is that today is the best day ever in history to start a company. There’s never been more funding, there’s never been more technology and technology has never been more powerful and accessible than it is today. And that’s true for both males and females. So, it’s great. It’s true, technology and entrepreneurship are being thoroughly democratized. So, all the power to all the humans that want to take the leap. So cool for this last segment. Lucy, I want to go through some quick entrepreneurial lessons that you’ve learned along your journey and the first one I want to touch upon is just a general big question of how do you start a startup? How did you start your startup? How did you get started and was there a framework or a process in mind or what would you say and how to actually do that?

Lucy: Yeah, I used the business model canvas. Just Google it and fill it out is pretty straightforward, but it just makes you look at your company overall and the impact it can have on you and consumer to who you can help for investors, to how the model would work and I just felt like it really helped give me a snapshot vision of where I was going and what I was trying to pursue. And I’ve done it with actually other founders who are like, I’m thinking about this idea and I’m like, okay, we have an hour and a half till you have to go. Let’s sit down and build this out and we’ve done it. And it’s been like, “oh my goodness, I have a company all of a sudden”. Sometimes we put it off, It’s a lot simpler. You can get actually a lot done quickly and then from there I actually also had this idea created, I just jumped on calls with people and talked it through. And some people I didn’t have the same opinions. I would ask for feedback, I jump on calls with founders like what would you think of this type of service? And just started talking to investors just to gather information. And I did that for a couple of months. I am just trying to really test what the issues were. What were people facing? And then from there really tried to build out what our product was and what our offering was. And then we went and we actually tested it and got into someone’s hands and used it with our first company. But a lot of that time was just research and really putting in kind of the (41:55 inaudible) worth of testing and really getting customer feedback. Even though we didn’t have customers. Getting feedback from people who were willing to give me their time was the kind of the first step.

Julian: Yeah, I know, and I think that’s key because, in the beginning, one of the first things you want to do is to validate your problem. Is this problem real? How big is this problem? How many people have this problem? What are the details of how this problem actually plays out? And the best way to do that is to actually talk with people. And you’d be actually surprised how many people are willing to help and jump on a call if you just ask. Some obviously won’t, but it’s a numbers game at the end of the day and that’s really the most important research that you have to do to really learn about what direction to take and to make sure that you’re doing and solving something that’s real.

Lucy: I completely agree. I think persistence is key there. And another part is, there’s the rise of the solo partner who is like doing everything themselves. And I think you may want a co-founder, you may want to build out a team, but you can do a lot on your own just by research, just by putting in the hours and just being willing to commit. I built the website and designed it a couple of times now, scratched it, rebuilt it to do all that. And I don’t have any experience. I am a psychotherapist who loves coaching. And that’s not exactly like (43:15 inaudible). I mean, you can learn those skills. You put in the time. You can learn any skill that you need. For a while, you might want to hire people who are experts on that, but you can probably get a lot of it done yourself to not shying away from that.

Julian: Yeah, and I would say that really depends on your network and your ability to sell on people on ideas. Because if you have a great network and you can sell people on ideas, you can just sell them an idea, and they’re on board. But most people don’t have that luxury and so if you actually go and do some of the work at the beginning where you research the problem, maybe build out a website, talk to people, learn more, then that data and information can be used to actually sell people and find a co-founder at that point when you’ve actually done the homework and those people are going to be more interested because they know this is something real and not just an idea that you thought about yesterday. The next one here is leadership. I know that part of the coaching that you do is leadership coaching. So, I’m just curious, what are some of the types of leadership principles that you have found to be most effective, either with the companies you work with, the clients, or either for those you guys practice Inward internally?

Lucy: Yeah, I love this video by Simon Sinek where he says, “what are you trying to do, get the most out of your people”. I know you want leaders who really care about their people, and so really, one of the biggest things we teach is how to do proper care, how to do proper recognition. Recognition is huge and how to do it properly is a big one. How to do empathy and active listening, these things that sound fluffy and kind of soft but actually what you’re doing is by using these skills, you’re reducing resistance and you’re getting the outcome. So many leaders, especially entrepreneurs, are trying to solve an issue. They’re like, okay here’s a problem, let me fix it and really, that isn’t the right method. When you’re coming from a place of leadership, you want to create leaders who are coaches who are helping their people work through it and get there on their own while supporting them and guiding them. So, we teach a lot of those types of principles.

Julian: Now, that is fundamental. And by the way, for anyone that wants to be a better leader, Simon Sinek is the way to go. The guy is masterful at leadership. Read The Infinite Game. That’s been one of my favorite books. And Simon has a tone of great videos and also follow his LinkedIn. He posts one-sentence messages on LinkedIn, and it’s like, oh my God so much wisdom.

Lucy: Yes, and he likes, little YouTube clips from him? Like, there’s always so much value.

Julian: Okay last entrepreneurship lesson here is on productivity. And so, this is also part of what you provide with your coaching. And so, I’m curious, what do you usually do to help someone become more productive or to help them overcome burnout? How do you usually approach this or what are some of your favorite productivity hacks?

Lucy: Yeah, I think one of my favorite ones is I don’t know if you’ve heard of the “Eat the Frog”. It’s actually a business book, but it’s the idea that what’s your frog of the day? What’s the most difficult thing that you’ve been avoiding and start with that. And so, I write out my day like, what are my commits and I pick three and I’m like, what are my three commits? And sometimes I’m like, if it’s just one really big one, I’ll just put that one. And that’s all I’m focusing on for the day. And I think a lot of time we all have listed. I love lists. I love using them to gain (46:25 unintelligible) you’re big on that. How do you (46:28 unintelligible) a motivation? We all get game by Instagram video games or whatever, but how can we use that in terms of productivity and workflow and motivation. So, getting that little checkmark that goes ding and you get dopamine like how do we create that. So having that big on list, month planning, really focusing on your essentials. I mentioned that with self-care but figuring out what your essential self-care core activities are. For me, it may be three to five. But like if you struggle to sleep, it might be sleep, it might be working out, it might be meditation. And me, it’s like double day journaling to have a constant feedback loop. To know where missing things, but figure out what you’re like, three to five essential activities are every day to really help take care of yourself so that you can show up stronger because you’ll notice, oh, I’m feeling really tired and I haven’t been doing those activities. And what you thought might be the right to be testing it, is that right treating yourself as an experiment to really figure out what’s best for you? It’s not the same activities as someone else. And so, treating those as extensions, not self-care.

Julian: Oh, that’s powerful. And I love the idea of starting with the hardest thing in the beginning. That’s actually something I do. So, most mornings I either start with writing or coding because those are really hard things. And one thing to note here is that oftentimes that hardest thing to do may not be like something difficult, technically coding but often the difficult thing to do has been something you’ve been procrastinating on for a while. So maybe something simple, but there may be a mental block and that’s making it difficult. So, if you can identify that and tackle that as the first thing and I won’t do anything else until I do this boom that’ll liberate you and the other thing is that I plan the next day, the night before so that when I start the next day, I don’t have to think about anything else. I already know what I’m starting with and I’m starting with the biggest frog, like the biggest commit and I can just dive into it and get into a flow state.

Lucy: Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I think another big part of that is when you do that big commit like fringing taking a moment to celebrate it and be like, yes, I did that a lot of times we passed through that where this is another time to build that gorgons mindset where it’s like, oh, that was uncomfortable and I did it like nice if you’re interested in, like, how to really click for your neurons to create that neural pathway that goes, oh right. This was something uncomfortable and I stepped into it and it’s good. Do a power pose. It’s one of the most-watched Ted talks about the power posing. I will like even jumping on before jumping on calls. I’ll stand in a power pose after I do something great or I’m excited about something. I’ll make sure to kind of like give a little fist pump or something to kind of actually have the physical connection of yes, I did something, build that confidence, build that self-esteem, build that discomfort.

Julian: Yeah, I love that. I think it’s so important to pick how to celebrate. And one of my favorite ways to celebrate actually is I have a little trampoline there. And so, any time I do something great or like I’m happy or I want to reward my neurochemical dopamine with something great that I did, I was like, I’ll just jump and be like, hell yeah.

Lucy: Yeah, I love it. One of the…

Julian: So cool. Yeah. A lot of great things. So yeah. Last question for you, Lucy So in wrapping this all together, I’m curious, what has been an entrepreneur in both its glorifying and its agonizing moments. What has it taught you about life?

Lucy: It is a great question. I think the biggest takeaway I’ve had from this whole journey and how it incorporates into all life is, you know if you’re doing anything about being mindful present, but it’s not you live in the moment. And this is so key because there are so many ups and there are so many downs on the entrepreneurial journey and in life. It just it’s part of the whole process. Being able to celebrate the wins because they are fleeting, being able to be okay and like, OK, something that’s happening but also remembers that that’s fleeting as well. That it’s not going to last forever. And just being OK with that and being in the moment and just knowing that it’s just for the moment right now. And I just kind of accepting that and remembering that that’s just its part of life and it kind of ebbs and flows and just kind of embrace the good moments when they’re happening and kind of surrender to the bad ones and they’re OK and being OK with that and instead of fighting them all the time and just kind of living in the moment. And, yeah, I think that’s honestly the best practice.

Julian: Yeah, well what you resist often persists. So, they enjoy, the goodness of achievements because they are fleeting every moment is ephemeral. So, by acknowledging the scarcity and short-lived cyst reality of every moment, it helps you embrace it more and yeah when things go south and shit hits the fan, focus on what you can control and that’s where your power lies. Easier said than done, but…

Lucy: It’s a skill you build, right? What can control letting go of the rest and just being in that moment and then it will soon be OK with that.

Julian: Everything flows. What you thought was the end of your life ten years ago is no longer at the top of your mind today. So actually, like any time I feel fearful and trying something, it’s like So, is this even going to matter in like a year from now or ten years from now? I’ll ask myself that question and it’s probably not.

Lucy: That is, I think, a great tool to pull out throughout this journey. It’s just going like, where can I get perspective? Is this really going to matter? And that can sometimes kind of snap you out of those intense moments, right?

Julian: Definitely, yeah. No, I use that perspective. Whenever I’d be too fearful to go and approach and talk to a girl. I was like, am I going to care that I went up and things didn’t go well, like 10 years from now. Probably not, just fucking do it.

Lucy: I love it. I love finding ways to get uncomfortable. building that discomfort.

Julian: Exactly. Lucy, it’s been a pleasure having you on. I really enjoyed the conversation. And I’m super excited to see where things will go with you with Inward. Thanks for being on and we’ll be in touch.

Lucy: Yeah. Thank you for having me. And please, anyone reach out if you have questions. Happy to connect and to help where I can.

Julian: So absolutely. Yeah. And we’ll provide Lucy’s contact and Socials in the show notes and with that. Thank you all for listening and we’ll catch you on the next episode. Hey, guys, three quick footnotes here before closing off, so the first is, did you enjoy the topics discussed in this episode? Well, I invite you to join the slack community for this podcast where we’ll keep the conversation going by engaging in discussions related to the episodes discussed in this podcast. Here you’ll be able to engage in conversations with me and other listeners. And if you really enjoy this podcast, it is likely that you would relate well with other listeners that also enjoy the podcast. In this community you’ll be able to meet, engage, learn from and potentially collaborate with the like-minded entrepreneurs that listen to this podcast. Let’s invent the future together. The second quick note is if you are interested in receiving updates on new episodes, I invite you to subscribe to my newsletter, and in this newsletter, I’ll also share notes, insights, wisdom tools and strategies that are designed to help you become a better entrepreneur and live a healthier, fulfilling and more productive life. And finally, the last footnote is that you can follow us on social media accounts to get updates on new episodes and engage with invaluable content related to entrepreneurship. And also, we have a website now you can go to Inventingthefuture.ai for detailed show notes on all the episodes. So, the links for joining the slack community, subscribing to the newsletter, the social media accounts and the website can all be found in the show notes for this episode. So, with that, I would like to wish you a day, week, year and life filled with an abundance of love, energy and prosperity. Take care and stay infinite my friends.